Or would you choose suicide? Obviously, that’s an exteme choice, but there seem to be quite a few making it. I know I’ve been off the topic of CBRN for a few days. But I just noticed this at War is Boring and I want to something to say about it.
Imagine a hospital that has to open up a special wing to handle the women who are setting themselves on fire to try to end their miserable lives, end the suffering and abuse at the hands of men. Well, it’s not imaginary, it’s real and there’s probably more than one. In Afghanistan, Vigilante Journalist found this:
Herat Regional Hospital recently opened a special ward for self-immolation victims, and receives an average of 6 cases per week. Most of them are between the ages of 13 and 22 and the majority do not survive. Many young Afghan girls are forced to marry men who are much older than them. Often they suffer physical, sexual and psychological abuses at the hands of their husbands and/or his family. These young women are also often forced into prostitution by their husbands but rarely admit this publicly because it is too shameful in Afghan society. Setting themselves on fire is a common form of protest or suicide, but there are virtually no social services in place to help these young women out of their situations and accord them their proper rights. Most of them are forced to go back to their unwanted husbands and it is unclear what their fate is thereafter.
Where is the global Muslim outcry about the treatment of women and girls, and what are Islamic NGOs doing to protect the helpless and change the Muslim mindset? Do they approve of the idea that women and girls are property to be owned, used, sexually abused, beaten, or even murdered? Figure it out, people, your MEN are the problem! If you claim to be a “moderate” then DO something about it! Everything from burkhas to female circumcision to self-immolation are all symptoms of the same male disease that is pervasive throughout, and perpetuated by, Islam.
I often wonder what would happen if someone went throughout the Islamic world handing out suicide pills to women. When droves of them swallow the pill without any hesitation, we’ll see who really wants to live as a Muslim. I certainly would kill myself rather than live an utterly meaningless and miserable life as the abused slave of a man. Who in the Muslim world speaks for abused Muslim women? Who is doing something about it?
UPDATE: Here in the U.S. we hate women, too. We just do it in a different, sneakier way. See Angry men get ahead while angry women penalized which was something I wrote about in Arab or Western – same fundamental problems for women. I should add here (for after you read the news article) that my opinion on why this is how things are, is because subconsciously men are terrified of women on a lot of levels. An angry woman is very threatening to men so they pull the “she’s crazy” weapon out of their bag of tricks. It’s effective. In other cultures they just beat them to keep them from ever becoming threatening.
UPDATE 2: More on the situation of women in the Islamic world—an upcoming documentary highlighting injustice against women in Pakistan.
Filed under: islam
Dear god. Worst suicide method ever.
I think they ought to establish a custom of setting fire to the men who make them miserable. They’d be stoned or hanged or shot for it, which is no day at the beach, but it would be a lot less painful than burning to death. And it would put the real hurt where the real hurt belongs.
I’m sorry I didn’t think of that. There aren’t enough medieval punishments carried out in fundamentalist Muslim societies, clearly they need to add setting fire to abusive men to the list.
I also visited a women’s prison where most of the inmates had killed their husbands. Women don’t know their rights and there is so little infrastructure to build social programs. Years of conflict have touched everyone’s life in some way. Poverty has pushed people to extremes. I think it is important to separate the muslim aspect from this story. The educated classes do not think or operate like this, men or women.
Wow. You did? Military or journalist? Blog?
True, there have to be other factors besides religion involved but I think religion is the excuse used very commonly by Middle Eastern and Asian (maybe mainly South Asian) men to mistreat females. I can’t say I’m sad that some of the women there have murdered their husbands, but that’s just my opinion. I haven’t been to Afghanistan, the best coverage I’ve seen was a public television edition of “Independent Lens” that was filmed by a young Afghani woman, about the lives of Afghani women. It was in parts horrifying and sad, and some of the poverty was stunning.
I am stressing the need to separate the religion from this issue because I am tired of the Muslim bashing that goes on in the western press. Hindu women in India get treated just as badly, and yet, we never associate the religion with the behavior, nor do we see it fit to support a war in that region to “end all the injustice.” Women all over Asia suffer horrible abuses, but we don’t say that people use Buddhism to make them subservient or to traffic them into prostitution, disease, and death. It’s a sort of reflex reaction people have in the west because they have been so well conditioned to immediately make the negative reference, and condemn the religion. We hone in on the horrifying and stay fixated on it, because the mainstream press has done such a good job of vilifying the Islamic world, and I believe there is a strategic reason behind that, which is important to examine before making grand statements about an entire religious culture.
Female circumcision is one of the greatest offenses to women, in my opinion, but it is not considered an Islamic tradition. Should our governments feel obliged to go in and change the Animist and Christian minds who carry out these terrible mutilations too? There are plenty of societies all over the world where women have no rights and suffer horrible abuses, but our governments don’t have any reason to invade those countries at the moment, so we chalk it up to cultural differences and poverty, or whatever seems benign. Tugging on emotional triggers to blind people to the facts is risky business, and only contributes to the misunderstandings, which, continue to fuel the conflict between the Muslim world and the west. It’s all part of the drumming up of support to go and “liberate” those poor women and change the Muslim mind, a dangerous approach to geopolitical diplomacy, if you ask me, and given the results, I can only conclude that this attitude has been disastrous.
Foreign presence here is mostly not about liberating people at all. That simply is not the way superpowers operate in the world. In fact, if you take a look at the history of US activity in the region, you will find that what they do support the most is extremist governments. Secularism is the greatest threat to US foreign policy in the Middle East. A great deal of the extremism that exists in the region today, is a result of US meddling in their affairs, pushing people to extremism. Don’t forget that Kabul in the 1960’s was full of hippies and Afghan women in skirts and high heels. Don’t forget that the US secretly funded the Taliban through the Pakistani government, and the Taliban period was the harshest for women in Afghanistan in the last century without argument. So if you consider that the US helped to bring them into power, just as they did Saddam and countless others in the region, it might be time to turn the religion question on its head and separate the issues.
Women suffer in many places, all over the earth. These women come from many different religions. Our governments want us to believe that Islam is inherently bad so they can have public support for wars in a region that is important to them. 1, 2, 3 separate statements all of which I believe are true.
Self-immolation is a dire form of protest that is bound to take affect on people because it is so extreme. People did it during the Vietnam War because they felt they had no other means to make themselves heard. It’s a powerful statement. And the fact that it is such a problem in Afghanistan today says a lot about the dire situations many women live in.
There are lots of local NGO’s doing what they can to educate women about their rights in Afghanistan. It’s difficult to do that because of security problems and illiteracy in women. There are even refuge centers for women who have been abused and are fleeing their families. Though they are few and far between, they exist, and it’s important to note that Muslim people, men and women alike are aware of this problem and working to change the situation. I have worked alongside mostly Afghan men, and most of them have been eager to stress that true Islam states that men and women should receive equal rights and education. I personally have experienced more direct sexism in France while working, than I have in Afghanistan. It’s probably difficult for you to imagine that, but it’s true.
Well, you slobbered a bibful, as my old granny would say.
Speaking only for myself, I have indeed bitched about Hindu suttee and Buddhists who self-immolate. And I’ve made myself all kinds of unwelcome by bitching about Christianity. I don’t like religion (and I don’t like fire). Islam, however, strikes me as especially backward and ill-suited to modernity.
Speaking as someone who owns a Quran (whose translators state that it cannot be grasped in English), I can tell you that Islam is not especially backward. It is dangerous. The forth Surah is entirely devoted to WOMEN and how to treat them. I suggest you read it BGG, and then you’ll understand why self-immolation is preferable. The portion on permission to marry slave girls has an interesting passage: “God wants to lighten your burdens for man has been created weak”.
I almost forgot, this is for the “journalist” who states that true Islam states that men and women should receive equal rights. This is a passage from the Quran: “And as for those women whose ill will you have reason to fear, admonish them; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them.” As to your belief that Islam (true or otherwise) stands for equal rights, well good luck with that!
If you read the bible, it sounds as though that religion is pretty unsuitable for modern times too. I’m not sure what basis you are using for that statement, S. Weasel. Maybe you have spent time in the Middle East as well, and had a very different experience from mine. The only thing I would repraoch you, then, is that your comment is an acusation without evidence for the rest of us to understand your perspective.
Years ago I swore that I would never set foot in a country that forced women to wear hejab. I had a lot of prejudices against Islam as well. I thought that I would be wholly unwelcome among men as their colleague, but I was very wrong. And on the contrary, I have been afforded special privileges precisely because I am a woman.
I am not religious at all. I am not even particularly fascinated with religion. It’s not my specialty. But after having travelled to 22 countries in my lifetime, I have found that we are all the same, and that all religions essentially seek to achieve the same goals, but somewhere along the line humanity fails those principles laid out.
My time in the Middle East has been magic, and the day to day respect the majority of people accord eachother, the hospitality that they extend, and the general peace of people’s manner here in Afghanistan in particular, is something the West has long forgotten about, and chooses to erase from the public dialogue. I never imagined it would be like this, but how could I when the image I was given was that of a region full of terrorists trying to subjugate their women. It’s not so simply packaged as that.
VJ, we’re not in Afghanistan or Iraq to liberate women, although there was some of that “injustice” propaganda spread around in the run-up to both invasions. You have a lot of issues with the wars and I don’t mean to mix the two up…war and abuse of women by Islamic fundamentalists.
I have no problem with why we went into Afghanistan and I wish we had finished the job properly and not divided our forces to go into Iraq. But it wasn’t about their women, and learning a lot of disturbing information about Islam has for most Americans been just incidental to the events on and after 9/11. The fact is that Islamic fundamentalists or extremists whichever is your favorite word, as well as some other religions and cultures, granted, treat women in horrendous ways. Yes I am aware of the same kinds of problems in Indian culture as well but I talked about Afghanistan, a Muslim country, because this was linked to your article. And Muslim behavior in all aspects of their lives is linked to Islam, that is what Muslims themselves tell us, that everything they do is a part of their belief system.
Really I’m with the Weasel on this, I don’t like any organized religion, but I have seen plenty of evidence that Islam is a particularly bad one. Muslim bashing in the press? I think the majority of our mainstream media currently seem to be careful to avoid it. The only things that I’ve actually seen in the last couple of years that were heavily slanted against Islam have been 2 “they hate us so much” programs that were aired on Fox. On the flip side there was the Ted Koppel in Iran documentary that portrayed the country in a completely positive light. Another country whose locals occasionally use Islam as their excuse to bury women up to their necks and stone them to death.
Joe, you will find the same sort of nonesense in the old testament.
As religions go, and I’ve explained my feeling about them, but Christianity is more benign because it seems to have gone through its barbaric period and evolved. Even the pockets of kooky fundamentalists we have in this country are pretty benign and generally ridiculed. People seem to pick and choose the parts of the bible that fit into modern life, in other words Christianity has largely evolved and adapted. Christians don’t appear to take the unpleasant parts of the old testament as an instruction to live their modern lives these days. But I am not convinced at all that is true about Islam.
BCG: I wasn’t suggesting that the US is in Afghanistan to liberate the women. I meant to say that harping on these negative aspects of much of the Islamic world has helped to garner public support, psychologically, for its presence here. Sorry if that was not more clear.
Such similar abuses as you site in your comment occur all over the world, in non-muslim societies, but it’s not in focus at present. Why? It’s a very valid question to investigate.
I am going to have to leave this debate now, as I have to get back to work. I am happy to have had this live discourse. I did this story on self-immolation because it’s important and i believe in fighting for women’s rights. I don’t want it, however, to further fuel the misconceptions about Muslim people as a whole.
There are some very positive things happening in Afghanistan. I will soon be publishing a story about women who actively participate in the public sector. I hope you check back to my website soon.
Best wishes and thanks for all the comments.
BCG:
Okay…just one last thing, then….I know exactly what you mean, but I think this is where lack of education, poverty, and constant warfare come into play. We are talking about developing, war torn countries here, so if you think that Christianity has “evloved,” why would Islam not do the same? And my experience has been just that, that those who have an education here do not behave as such, and generally, have very open minds about women’s participation in the workforce and so on. There is nothing to suggest that one religion is more inherently bad than the other. I am speaking from first-hand experiences, not what I have read in the Koran or whatever.
I do think that a sort of polarization has happened in the last few decades which can be traced throughout the region, a return to fundamentalism which is new, and I believe, related to foreigners come in here and trying to change their “Muslim minds.” I can remember coming of age as a young woman and expeiencing prejudice because of my sex, having men try to make me believe that I am less than or make me see the world through their eyes, put me in my place, so to speak, and I fell into my own period of extremism, which, I thankfully got over. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to draw the analogy.
I really have to run now, but thanks again for all the discussion.
Sorry for the late reply, VJ but here goes. Do you suppose that is why they have a New Testament? I’m surprised you refer to the Quran as “nonsense”, but of course I can’t really appreciate the Quran since it cannot be properly translated into English. Even so, I think more people should read it so they KNOW and UNDERSTAND what we are confronting worldwide. Please make sure you wear a Hejab at the very least, preferably a veil. It suits you.
VJ, if you happen to come back by – I agree that Islam could evolve, particularly as you say, where poverty and lack of education are not a problem – for instance consider the poll on Muslim attitudes that was done here I think about a month or two ago, showing a Muslim middle class here in the U.S. that appears to be adapted to the culture, satisfied here. Also over on the Towelians blog they note modern or “diet” Muslims are the equivalent of what we in the U.S. call our “silent majority.” Lots of them with moderate views. They also mentioned in relation to this topic that there are efforts at least in Pakistan that they know of, to help abused women. But for now, in many places it is not evolved and has a long way to go, as Christianity did before it became “almost” entirely adapted to modern culture (it still has a lot of problems with science but that’s another topic!).
I wanted to add to your comment – “I did this story on self-immolation because it’s important and i believe in fighting for women’s rights. I don’t want it, however, to further fuel the misconceptions about Muslim people as a whole.” — I understand your viewpoint (although after reading a variety of your posts I know we have some large differences of opinion on certain things, but that’s fine). I look forward to your pending story on active women in Afghanistan.
[...] Would you choose to live as a female in the islamic world? Or would you choose suicide? ….. [...]
Where is the global Muslim outcry about the treatment of women and girls,
Well, this is at least a start: http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/
And as VJ says above: I am stressing the need to separate the religion from this issue because I am tired of the Muslim bashing that goes on in the western press.
I want to say AMEN! There is so much criticsim of Muslims, but we don’t look at other groups the same way. I got so very tired of this stupid “HISTORY TEST” That went like this:
Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice test. The events are actual cuts from past history.. They actually happened!!!
Do you remember?
-1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by
a. Superman
b. Jay Lenno
c. Harry Potter
d. Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40
1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
2. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:…
The test went on and on. (By the way, Sirhan Sirhan was Christian, so the author of the original ‘History Test’ doesn’t even have his or her facts straight)
So, for just a little balance and sanity, I have created a new test, as follows:
http://enigmafoundry.wordpress.com/2006/08/30/history-test-revised-version/
I’ve seen Irshad Manji’s documentary, yes hopefully there will be more like her.
Posting from one of those dumb right wing chain emails doesn’t help you make a point. And you’re mixing up a post about Islamic treatment of women with terrorism.
So to get back to the issue of this post, Islam is not separate from the problem as it would be so politically correct to believe. Abusive men in many countries use it as their excuse to beat women or worse. VJ above says it’s just the poor and uneducated who do this and I understand her view on that because the poor and uneducated in every society have more incidence of abuse. But that doesn’t explain modern, educated, and rich Saudi Arabia, which also uses it as an excuse to keep women controlled. It is the excuse with the Taliban just as it is the excuse in Saudi Arabia and other countries. Islam as a system of control is harmful to women in many societies and it seems it’s just up to “radicals” like Manji to speak out. In fact the very existence of people like Manji proves my point, that Islam needs correction where it comes to the treatment of women. In fact one of her main themes (her words) is the inferior treatment of women in ISLAM. Not in Pakistan, but ISLAM. Well I don’t think she’s making much of a dent in Afghanistan which was the country in question in this post. A number of more modernized countries will have to be shaped up first and I sincerely hope that happens in the foreseeable future.
[...] Would you choose to live as a female in the islamic world? Or would you choose suicide? ….. [...]